Sunday, March 27, 2022

Obi-Wan and Vader fighting in Kenobi doesn't ruin ANH


This is going to be a very long post so just a heads up if you're going to read it. Takes about 10-15 minutes to read, for me at least. But if you don't want to read it, it's fine, I had fun writing it anyway. Also, this contains some spoilers for Rebels but they are probably the ones everyone knows already by just hanging around in this sub. Okay, let's get going then.I start with these quotes from Obi-Wan."What I told you was true from a certain point of view. Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. The truth is often what we make of it; you heard what you wanted to hear, believed what you wanted to believe."Kenobi also said "He (Vader) betrayed and murdered your father (Anakin)" to Luke in ANH. But later it was changed that Vader turned in ESB from Anakin's murderer to Anakin himself. And this was made by George Lucas himself. No one has a problem with it and for a good reason, it was the most important change in Star Wars. So Kenobi's words turned from literal to figurative/symbolic speech. Because if you take it literally, it doesn't make any sense what he says in ANH and in a way, Lucas "broke the continuity" already in OT if we take that route. But we aren't because everyone takes it figuratively, like it's supposed to.And this is where we come to the Kenobi show. It has seemingly divided the fandom to two groups: Obi-Wan and Vader shouldn't meet because it breaks the continuity or it's fine if they meet. You can probably guess on which group I am. So I'm going to go line by line of what Vader and Obi-Wan say regarding each other in ANH and give my opinion on why it doesn't figuratively and not even literally stop them from meeting in between ROTS-ANH. Also, remember that the Kenobi show takes place 9-10 years before ANH, that's still plenty of time for them to "meet again at last."Okay, here we go."I sense something, a presence i haven't felt since..." sensing a presence you haven't felt in 10 years is still a long time, no problems here."He is here." - Vader"Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?" - Tarkin"A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master." - Vader"Surely he must be dead by now. " - Tarkin"Don't underestimate the Force." - Vader"The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You my friend are all that's left of their religion." - Tarkin..."Obi-Wan is here. The Force is with him." - Vader"If you're right, he must not be allowed to escape." - Tarkin"Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone."Okay so Vader repeats the presence thing, that he hasn't felt it since the last time he met Obi-Wan, again, no problems here. The meaning of Tarkin saying "he must be dead by now" depends a lot of how the fight between Vader and Obi-Wan goes. One possibility is that Kenobi fakes his death or something. It's hard to comment on this before we have seen the show. What I do find interesting is the "he must not be allowed to escape" by Tarkin and Vader answering with the "Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.". To me this could indicate that there could be an interference during their fight in the show that let's Obi-Wan escape and Vader doesn't want that to happen again so this time he goes alone. "Escape is not his plan", actually is a pretty strong hint that Kenobi escapes from the battle but Vader senses now that that is not Obi-Wan's intention but something else.Okay, moving on to their fight in ANH."I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, but now I am the master."Okay, these are THE LINES everyone is talking about when discussing about their possible meeting in the show. "I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan." 10 years, a long time, no problem. At least it's to Anakin Skywalker. Remember his line in AOTC about Padme "I haven't seen her in 10 years master." that he says to Obi-Wan? "We meet again, at last." 10 years, a long time again. I admit, this line loses a bit of it's emotional impact but it's still not incorrect if they meet in the show."The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner, but now I am the master." Okay, this is the big one. But even when you think about it now, "when I left you I was but the learner", it doesn't make sense because Anakin definitely wasn't a learner anymore in ROTS. He was a fully trained Jedi Knight (like Ahsoka said) and the youngest member of the Jedi Council ever (although didn't have the rank of a Jedi Master) and he was the Chosen One. He was already more powerful than Obi-Wan in ROTS, and only lost to him because he was too arrogant about his powers. But what we have to remember is that Darth Vader doesn't like to remember his time as Anakin Skywalker, "Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him." Darth Vader was "born" during ROTS from his point of view. But Deborah Chow (Kenobi's director) said something interesting about Vader in an recent interview (non-spoiler):"For us, it's very similar [to Obi-Wan] in the sense that he's in between these two trilogies. So he isn't the New Hope Vader quite yet, you know what I mean? So we are with the character sort of in the middle of this period. It is still Vader obviously, but it's a Vader that isn't quite as fully formed as A New Hope".To me this indicates that Vader is still struggling with the light (Anakin) within him during the show. "There is good in him.", were Padme's last words to Obi-Wan. So he is not a fully formed Darth Vader yet, that is the one we see in ANH. And to me this means that the "when I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master" means that he was still a learner of the dark side when he meets Obi-Wan in the show but now, in ANH, he has mastered the dark side, "The circle is now complete". And Obi-Wan in a way confirms it, "Only a master of evil, Darth." Obi-Wan doesn't see Anakin anymore in there, behind the mask, he doesn't see the good in him anymore, it's just Darth Vader. That's why he mockingly calls him Darth, with his title, not by his name, Vader."Your powers are weak, old man." - Vader"You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." - Obi-WanNo problem here whatsoever. Obi-Wan learning how to become a force-ghost is probably one of the things we see in the show but he probably doesn't quite master it before meeting Vader but during ANH, he has finally mastered this "light side" power."You should not have come back." - VaderSome people have said what Vader means by this is that Obi-Wan shouldn't have come back from hiding. It still works if they met 10 years ago. If Obi-Wan escapes during their fight, maybe this is Vader kind of saying "You got away the last time we met, but it won't happen again and we both know now how this will end."And that's all the lines they said to each other in ANH. I'm going to include a few more lines from the OT and then I'm done."He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." - Obi-WanTo me this line makes way more sense if Obi-Wan tries to turn Vader one last time in the show, respecting Padme's last words but ultimately failing of course. Vader won't turn, does something twisted and evil and then Obi-Wan finally loses all hope for him (like Ahsoka did). This makes Luke's arc even better in ROTJ because he never loses hope for Anakin (he's the symbol of hope after all)."I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father." - Luke"That name no longer has any meaning for me!" - Vader"It is the name of your true self. You've only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That was why you couldn't destroy me... (later) come with me." - Luke"Obi-Wan once thought as you do." - VaderObi-Wan definitely doesn't think there is any good left in Vader during ANH. In ROTS? Obi-Wan went to Mustafar to kill Anakin, not to turn him. (even if it was from Yoda's orders, he still went there)."Padme, I must find him." - Obi-Wan"You are going to kill him, aren't you?" - Padme"... He has become a very great threat... Anakin is the father, isn't he?... I'm so sorry." - Obi-WanObi-Wan didn't want to do it, or didn't even think he could do it, but in the end, he did it. "I will do what I must." When he gives his famous "You were the Chosen One!" speech, he talks about Anakin in past tense, almost like he's already gone. Because well in Obi-Wan's point of view, he is good as dead, burning in the lava and all. Why not kill him though, put him out of his misery/agony? Because a Jedi won't kill an unarmed person. And Obi-Wan lived by the Jedi Code. But if Vader and Obi-Wan meet during the show and Obi-Wan tries to turn Vader, thinking that there is still good in him? Then Luke saying "come with me" to Vader and him responding with "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", makes much more sense and makes that scene even better.And that's that, finally. So about the emotional impact in ANH getting affected somewhat if they meet in the show? I can admit that but I'm okay with it if they do it right in the show. But continuity ruined? Not at all. I think it could actually improve the OT if done right. I'm just really passionate about Star Wars and this was my take on one of the hot topics of the Kenobi show, I simply can't wait for it. I'm sure many of my "predictions" won't go this way but I don't mind, it's fine. I'm just grateful, excited and happy to see Ewan and Hayden as Obi-Wan and Vader/Anakin again after all these years in a pretty much Sequel to ROTS. I honestly never thought that we would get this show for real and yet here we are! via /r/StarWars https://ift.tt/QsVa8WX

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